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DISCUSSMark Driscoll Kicks His Own Ass
07/01/2008By Jesse Benjamin
Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, took a dramatic stand against girly men at a Pastor’s Conference in Houston last week.
The conference, called “re:tool and re:load,” previously billed as “jesus 2.0,” featured speakers from around the country with the stated focus of “Making the Gospel and Missiology Relevant to Post Modern Culture.” Speaking at the last session of the conference, Driscoll focused his three-and-a-half-hour talk on the need for pastors to be more alpha.
“The problem with our churches today is that the lead pastor is some sissy boy who wears cardigan sweaters, has The Carpenters dialed in on his iPod, gets his hair cut at a salon instead of a barber shop, hasn’t been to an Ultimate Fighting match, works out on an elliptical machine instead of going to isolated regions of Russia like in Rocky IV in order to harvest lumber with his teeth, and generally swishes around like Jack from Three’s Company whenever Mr. Roper was around.”
Pacing the stage in a vaguely threatening manner, Driscoll focused on Biblical examples. “Jesus and Paul were serious dudes. They had teeth missing. Jesus was a carpenter, Paul was in prison. These guys didn’t eat tofu dogs and bean sprouts. They didn’t play tennis. If there were trucks back in their times, they would have been doing driveway lube jobs on a Saturday afternoon. Same thing with King David. Yeah, he might have played a lyre, but he slaughtered thousands of guys.”
The 300 pastors from around the country roared with approval, even though many of them had heard the same labored formulations at previous conferences called “reGeneration” and “resurge and reform.”
“At the Re:Ignite conference he talked about how Jesus and Peter didn’t wear matching sweatshirts that said ‘Best Buds’,” said John Kinston, a conference attendee who was live-blogging the event.
Kinston is emblematic of the many young pastors who support Driscoll. He planted Kiona Community Church three years ago in downtown Louisville, Kentucky. He attends 37 Mark Driscoll conferences each year, because he said he needs the support of fellow church planters and the inspiration of steroidal statistics.
“Numbers aren’t important, but we’ve grown 81.7% a year since our launch date and I still can’t get the guys to step up and be warriors," said Kinston. "We want to love our city and we can’t do that with a bunch of pansies who would rather play video games than go to a monster truck rally or tattoo their faces like Mike Tyson.
“At last year’s Converging Conference, Driscoll talked about standing up when you piss and I got really excited. We started a men’s-only Bible Accountability Group. It was a combination of scripture study and Muy Thai Stick Fighting. It was great for a few weeks, until my worship pastor lost an eye. I had to make a tough call then and there: no more Muy Thai Stick Fighting at Kiona Community without protective face gear. I still think it might have been a spiritual compromise.”
In Houston, Driscoll was intent on making absolutely clear that he is in favor of masculinity. At the 2 hour, 15 minute mark, he invited five pastors from the audience to take the stage, put his hands behind his back, stuck out his chin, and said, “Hit me with your best shot. Go on. I won’t hit you back. I want to show everyone what this is all about.” When none of the five took a swing, Driscoll had them escorted from the building and proceeded to hit himself five times.
“This is what being a pastor is about, guys. If you can’t handle it, go back to teaching yoga or playing My Little Pony with the other girls.”
The rest of the session followed the same general tone, with Driscoll ridiculing insulated coffee cups, haiku and dental floss as feminine while extolling athletic cups, tobacco spit and broken load-bearing bones as being “essential for a pastor.”
The blogosphere heated up quickly in the wake of Driscoll’s talk. At Jesuswasaman.blogspot.com, one post read, “This is the only thing that will turn back the tide of the Church’s decline in America. Until more guys step up and start punching themselves in the face, people will continue to leave the Church.”
Driscoll’s detractors had their say as well. At thereisaplacefordriscollinhellbesidehitler.wordpress.com, Angel23 said, “It doesn’t matter that Driscoll’s church has 6,000 people coming to worship God, if he continues to use words like sissy he will be smited.”
Driscoll turned down our request for an interview, saying, “Interviews are for wimpy guys who wear Sans-a-Belt slacks and chew sugar-free gum.”
Is Driscoll the Bizarro Rob Bell? Both pastor churches called Mars Hill, and both are (supposedly in driscolls case) emergent pastors, but they are total opposites. Bell is like a gen-x Mr. Rogers and Driscoll wishes he were Hulk Hogan. Christendom is ever so entertaining. The Door should do "Christian Celebrity Death Match".
Bell, I can relate to; Driscoll I can only roll my eyes at and sigh.
Ya, I like Bell too. One of the few I can sit all the way through.
The other "one" I like is Jay Bakker.
Speaking of Bell, he had Phyllis Tickle speak this past Sunday; I haven't listened to her message, but it should be interesting to hear.
Because he addresses things like the virgin birth of Christ not true, and that we can no longer be sure of what's what in the Bible? Sit away.
In his "denying of the virgin birth" he was making a rhetorical point, it would be like taking a sound bite from a pastor talking about sinful things and and claiming that he was teaching people to be sinful. Quotes devoid of their intended context can be taken in many directions they were not intended.
I've listened to both Bell and Driscoll, and I've never heard either of them say something that caught my eye as heretical. They have different styles yes, and some different interpretations of things, but they are both doing their best to spread the word of God.
Looking for heresy from Rob Bell? Don't need to look far.
Try reading Velvet Elvis.
If we found Jesus was not born of a virgin, would that make any difference? Bell says "no". Apparently his theology has some major gaps (heresies?). Yes, it would make all the difference if Jesus were just another man. The virgin birth has been considered essential since, say, Matthew chapter 1.
If you put all your faith in a virgin birth, it's not a strong faith. Bell is making the point that even if you het rid of the virgin birth, we still have faith.
It is sad when faith is the truth. Faith MUST have an object! If the object is not reliable or true then it is worthless and dead. People have faith all the time, but is it grounded in the object that is true? Muslims have faith that if they kill themselves in a holy sense they will be with virgins, is there faith what matters not the object (who)they are trusting in?
Faith in Christ is worthless if He was not born from a virgin. He would not be able to lay down His life (because He would be spiritually dead like all of us) only one can represent man and it had to be one born of the seed of the women. The historical Christ and who He is and how He came is key to us putting our faith in Him for to give us His life. If He is not the promised one and He did not die and was buried and rose again then He is nothing and His teaching are but fluff, and empty philosophy.
I have heard and read some of Rob Bell's works and I would suggest that you better know what God say's in His word. A expert in dealing with counterfeiters knows what real money looks like so well that they can identify the counterfeit money. The reason why one thinks Rob Bell is right is they do not know the word of God and or they do not have the Holy Spirit who will lead them into all truth. All that I have said comes from the scriptures I did not use the references on purpose like I would normally. If you know the Word you will understand why the virgin birth is so critical.
Also, you are missing what Church history says or you do not even know much about church history. Pick up a copy of "Church History In Plain Language" by Bruce Shelley. You will see the early church from the beginning having these same problems. The lessen is move away from the core and the person of Christ and you run a muck into all sorts of error. If your premise is off so will you conclusions.
Brian is right about the satire, but I had respond to this idea of faith is what is important and it is not critical about the virgin birth, that is not true. For some they will defend a Rob Bell to the death instead of letting the Holy Spirit be the commentary. I was just reading these posts and saying oh how we have left Christ and who He is for an empty faith that changes like an Cameleon. Jesus said it this way, who do you say that I am? This includes the virgin birth.
Rob Bell has a valid and theologically sound point. Thinking that Christ's divinity is causally tied to the account of the Virgin Birth drastically misrepresents the Chalcedonic formulation of the hypostatic union, which is THE orthodox christological statement for the Church! Christ is True God and True Man because his human nature and divine nature are united in the personhood of the Logos. The Virgin Birth has nothing to do with mechanistically with the mystery of the Incarnation. True, the Virgin Birth speaks of and to the Incarnation because in it God gives us a wonderful physical symbol of Christ's identity, but the Virgin Birth does NOT cause the hypostatic union. If the Virgin Birth were the cause of the hypostatic union, we would be saying that Jesus is a mixing of human DNA and some type of "divine" DNA. (which is itself a nonsensical concept which fails on both a biological and spiritual level) Moreover, we would be saying that Christ's humanity was substantially different from our humanity, and thus his significance for us and our salvation would be erased. For this reason, we must understand that the Virgin Birth as a witness to the Incarnation, but not the mechanism of Incarnation. Even if the Church were somehow forced to give up the Virgin Birth, we would not be forced to give up ancient kerygma of the Church.
A second reason for the virgin birth was to ensure that Jesus was both the legal and royal heir to the throne. The problem had to do with the curse on Jehoiakim. I am quoting the following from one of the many sources that explain how the curse works with a divine solution.
Joseph, the father of Jesus, was one of Jehoiakim's descendants (through Jeconiah). Joseph's offspring could not claim David's throne because of the curse. Jesus laid claim to the throne of David (Luke 1:32, Acts 2:30, Hebrews 12:2). If Jesus had been born of Joseph, the curse would have been contradicted.
Also, God had promised David that one of his physical descendants would reign on the throne of his kingdom forever (2 Samuel 7:12-13). As explained above, Joseph was excluded from being the genetic father of the future king of Israel.
It was impossible to fulfill the requirements of both curse and promise by natural means. One man had to be both heir to and offspring of David, without being the genetic descendant of Jehoiakim. This problem required a divine solution.
God created a solution through the miracle of the virgin birth. Although Joseph was one of Jehoiakim's offspring (through Solomon), Mary was not. She was a descendant of Nathan, one of David's other sons (Luke 3:31). God's promise to David was fulfilled because Mary was the biological parent of Jesus.
The virgin birth also addressed the curse God had pronounced upon Jehoiakim. Kingship was an inherited right. By Joseph, Jesus inherited a legal claim to the throne of David. However, he was exempt from the curse of Jehoiakim because Joseph was not his genetic father.
So the miracle of the virgin birth accomplished God's will in two ways. First, it granted Jesus a legal claim to the throne of David. And second, it maintained the integrity of the curse God had pronounced upon Jehoiakim. Indeed, Jesus was not one of Jehoiakim's offspring.
This is so emergent church preaching, which is a euphemism for the new age apostate church. Full of gobbldygook. Can't get a straight answer cuz you just don't have one. Many will call me Lord, Lord...
But if you get rid of the virgin birth, you have false prohecy Isaiah 7:14). If you have false prophecy, you have a god who is weak and can not keep his word or a liar who chooses not to keep his word. Faith is not blind.
but.besides various other reasons, Jesus being born of a virgin was prophecied in Isaiah.(Isaiah 7:14). If Jesus had not fulfilled that prophecy, either the Bible is not inerrant (it is)or Jesus is not the Messiah (He is). If Jesus was not born of a virgin, we would need to question his deity. We do not have to, because he fulfilled prophecy.
Too bad Bell clearly has heretical teaching... Mark on the other hand, is solid as a rock when it comes to the core closed handed beliefs...
I fully agree with you, Braden. I like the way you put it, that both Bell and Driscoll have different styles but are doing their best to spread the word of God.
Bell preaches heresy. Driscoll is Biblical with a touch of being very OUT THERE. Driscoll broke from the Emerging Church and the heresy taught and now teaches at seminars with the likes of John Piper, C.J.Mahaney and Al Mohler.
Whoever suggests that DRISCOLL left the emergent church because of heresy, really should get the facts straight. First, He still calls himself "EMERGING" different than emergent,and second he is a strict calvinistic biblicist, both of which are derived form the 16th century PRO REF... NOt Words from JESUS' mouth... so be careful PAUL. Second, I think people should have punched him I would and then called him an idiot. Sure why aren't men more manly... that's the problem with the world!! Gimme a break. As if manly was described by the amount of football you play, or how much weight you lift... Strange I don't remember hearing anything on the cross about JESUS being like OH YEAH GIMME MORE I CAN TAKE IT!
What a bunch of gunk and propaganda.
John, you know that this is a satirical humor site, right?
I agree with the weight lifting and football. But you got to admit. Jesus was a bad ass.
It's not about Jesus being a bad-ass — he even prayed to his Father at the last minute about whether there was a different way to get he job done, but ultimately he did what had to be done.
But he also talked about the beauty of flowers (lilies of the field) and sparrows and, oh yeah, don't forget; he even cried and had perfume poured on him. Don't cheapen Christ by turning him into a today's version of William Wallace or The Punisher.
I second the motion John!
John...Driscoll isn't a calvanist, to paraphrase/ half-quote him, "I'm not a Calvanist anymore than Calvin was, I like Calvin, but [don't believe in Calvanism]. He states his position on Calvanism clearly in one of his many books. (I own them all). Furthermore, most recently, he rebukes Calvanism in his sermon on religious legalism.
While I think having the pastors who wouldn't hit him escourted from the conference was a little drastic, THE REST OF HIS THEOLOGY IS SOUND, and if you listen to him enough, you'll find he's humble about occasionally being a little out there. Even the majority of his dissenters will agree with the fact that it's his personality they have a hard time with, never his theology. At least he's not preaching health and wealth, fundamentalism, or legalism - he's preaching JESUS, contrary to what most high-profile pastors are doing nowadays, which is preaching a gospel different from the one found within the bible, and most of them have MUCH more followers and WAY less dissenters than Driscoll does, which is scary. It's really scary that we have a modern-day pastor that can reach people like the 20-something's in our nation and preach the real gospel, and we're all nit-picking about how he's going about doing it, meanwhile people like Joel Osteen and Binny Hinn, and John Macarthur are taking over our bookstores and airwaves.
I do strongly believe there is a drought of true male leadership that today's men can relate to and find within many of today's churches...Sorry, but testosterone and Mr. Rogers don't mix. Driscoll reaches the crowd that modern-day mega pastors can't reach. People aren't focusing on that, they're focusing on how UNLIKE the other pastors he is and how non-conforming he is to the self-righteous view of the masses who think a pastor should be the equivelent of a momma's boy, because somehow THAT's the only type of person God would chose to bring his message of grace and salvation, is though a guy that flosses and wears a cardigan sweater.
Paul, can I ask what your definition of heresy is?
Listen to yourselves, "Christians". Which God are you following? Lord Driscoll? The Bell Diety? It's a bit shameful, or was Driscoll crucified to you? Were you baptized in the name of Bell?
Read 1 Corinthians 1. Repent. Then focus outward so that you may produce the fruit of bringing others into the knowledge of Jesus. Pathetic Christians.
pathetic indeed. some even go by the name "anonymous."
Bell is a borderline heretic, If this were a few hundred years ago they would have burned him.
Brian. Did you really just say that? you are backing him up and i know you didn't mean to. jesus was crucified. they might have burned Bell for teaching the Gospel and its truths. I'm positive he would rejoice in a death of that nature, because he would be sacrificing his life for the love of Jesus.
Im in total shock at this filthy display of leadership in the church! I was really digging what both men had to say about Jesus. I didn't agree with everything they said, but chew the straw spit out the sticks! But this crap of you have to be uber manly to be a Godly man, is ridiculouse! I never saw jesus Tell anyone to hit him to prove how tough he was!!!! I'm really bummed about this cause i was really starting to enjoy what driscoll had to say on things!!! But to publicly bash people or men that that aren't that way is really sick and not Christ like! prayer is all that can be done for him nd i pray that he comes out of this very immature way of thinking!!!
It is likely that you would be hard pressed to get Bell to commit to being an emergent pastor; although it certainly seems he has some of those tendencies.
Dog is still speaking.
No. Driscoll is embarrassed that his church is the same name as Rob Bell. Driscoll teaches from the Bible, doing it extremely blunt, too blunt for some. Bell's "Bible" is so watered down to nothing. Driscoll talks about how his Christian fundamentals is never changing from the old testament. But his ways to get them across are progressively changing. Bell on the other hand is progressively changing both.
Do you think men need to be creative enough to come up with a new name. Jesus didn't name his church.
I like Bell but I think driscoll rocks, I really enjoy the fact that he tells it how it is and doesnt feel the need to impress the churched people while going after the lost, as christians we all need to focus on the lost and stop at nothing that isnt sinning!
That's awesome! I would watch it!!!
I love Mark and wish all Christian men would put on the full armor of God and act like a real man - protect, provide, nurture and be ready to fight for the Gospel.
That's not what that passage means. The full armor of God does not mean that each of us individually puts on our armor and we go around helping each other to 'don' their armor. The Greek word is plural-i.e. We as a whole church, the Body of Christ, together we put on The One and Only armor of God. There is only one armor for the one Body, and we as a whole church are to put on the armor of God. Their are to be no closet christians. We do not fight alone. To quote a Founding Father-if we do not hang together we will surely hang separately. But we only have one weapon. The sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Driscoll is out of line talking about the manly man I just read about. First, we are not called to be manly men we are called to be Godly men. Willing to lay down our lives, or die, for our faith our wives, whatever. But the word for life is psyche. We are to sacrifice our dreams, our wants, our desires for the Cross of Christ. We are to deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily, and follow Christ. Humble, meek, recognizing that we are Spiritually bankrupt. Filled with the Spirit when we are attacked for the cause of Christ we respond in love, not returning evil for evil but with the Word of God. That is our only weapon. The whole Bible is true. All of it. Addressing the earlier post if Christ was not born of a virgin then God is a liar because He prophesied about it. If God is a liar then we might as well throw away our Bible's.
Amen - preach it Billy
Driscoll is an amazing man of God. This article loses credibility in its last quoting. Learn to get credible sources!
Driscoll is an idiot. He wants all the focus of him...it is not about Christ but rather about him.
He's forgotton some of the truths about speech seasoned with salt.
I should try to love the man...but I hate what his view is.
Why do you persecute people for their personality traits. I know men who are rough and tumble and I know men who are more studious. It has nothing to do with relegion. Jesus uses who we are...where we are.
I don't want to be to harsh towards Mark Driscoll because he does have some good things to say. But the way he is acting with his Christian-WWF stylized idea of manhood just shows ignorance. And his attacks upon other Christian leaders who he thinks are pansies, or whatever, is almost hateful. Personality does have some parts to play in this discussion, but then who is he to say that a man with a less confrontational and butch personality is less of a man? He is being judgemental. Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, and various other Emergent leaders I personally see as much harder to listen to as a reflective follower of Christ, because their sermons and books have messages that the majority culture doesn't want to hear. Most church people in America are uncomfortable with them because of how far they and others with them are willing to go for Jesus. The most un-confrontational person I can think of happens to be the same one who has thrown himself in many situations that many Driscoll type of "men" wouldn't dare put themselves into without a gun. Shane Claiborne went to Iraq in the midst of the bombing, in order to be with the people of Iraq in that time of war.
Point being to this reply, personality does contribute to how we all act, but Jesus wants to transform all of us into people who live like Him. I agree that Jesus was a real "Man", but you don't see him going around punching himself in the face, (or anything remotely similar) to prove his manliness.
The reason why Driscoll is so harsh is because many of these "emergent pastors" have stepped away from God's teaching on basic beliefs in Christianity. We are supposed to rebuke the religious leaders who are leading people away to some other belief in Christ that is not true. Rebuke away Mark! All you people who think we need to just be nice and accept everyone...Get a life! Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who were skewing what the Bible taught.
Dude. thank you.
Give me a break. I love Rob. I don't agree with everything he says but I love him and what he does for people. I'm so sick of Christians spending sooo much time arguing dogma that they completely forget the 'widows and orphans'. Driscoll is a chest-beater that thinks he's 'radical'. Please. I love how 10 different pastors will have 10 different opinions on any give passage in the Bible. So Rebuke away and watch the rest of us simply walk away.
And just what is wrong with girly men?
go right no simply walking away from, the truth, from Jesus, and in the end Life(the life that comes from The truth of Jesus)! Driscoll is willing to stand up and speak Truth(big T), Rob has a new and (maybe) dangerous idea of turth(small t).
First of all, dude (and I'm assuming you're a dude, because I doubt there are too many un-battered women who agree with Driscoll)... learn how to spell! And the internet is already anonymous without you compounding that by making that your name to post - own your opinions!
Second of all, if you really believe Driscoll's got the TRUTH, how effective do you think you are being in spreading that message by screaming incoherently at anyone who disagrees with him? Jesus met people where they were. Driscoll is no Jesus, and anyone who claims that some dude talking now can have a direct scope on what Jesus meant two thousand years ago is delusional. We live by faith, not by knowledge.
Third of all, Driscoll reminds me of the guy who called me a "fag" for suggesting that he was getting a bit out of hand screaming at people in a pick-up soccer game on the lawn of my University. It's not a Christian description of masculinity he's touting, it's a redneck, bully, blustering kind of maleness that has to attack anything other than brute force because it reminds him of what he probably thinks he is - a big dumb ox with real small ideas.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear about this guy getting arrested for selling illegal steroids out of the trunk of his car, or beating up some kid in his youth group for partaking of "girly" activities like painting or playing an acoustic guitar unplugged.
This guy is like Benny Hinn for forty-year-old jocks who never left high school.
A wise friend told me recently that I need to make sure I'm loving on the deluded heretics I meet in the church as well - and that's true - but there comes a time when the most loving thing you can do is call someone out as a wolf who's not even bothering with sheep's clothing.
More probable is that we find out that he was abused as a kid.
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